Nah, see, that’s where it goes too far. Yeah, there are pictures, and yeah, there are way too many of them, but they’re not the norm from what I’ve seen. But this is a great example of how just pictures can be so misleading. There’s way too many of them, enough that they’re probably going to have a genuine problem when they (hopefully) try to deal with them later, but from what I can tell, it’s still a pretty big exaggeration to call them the norm.

I’ve been shown some of those, and my issue with them has always been that a scattering of pictures like that can paint a very misleading picture if they’re used effectively. I was hoping someone would provide something with a more complete overview.

Fortunately, someone came through with some quality articles about the situation around the time of this post. Unfortunately been super busy and then sick and then busy again, hence the late reply, so I don’t have time right now to dig them back out again, but if you want to see them, check my comment history. I replied to them to thank them for actually providing some good evidence, so should hopefully be findable.

My overall takeaway from them was that Ukraine does have a problem with far right nationalists, but the problem is largely exaggerated to bolster condemnation of Ukraine. Ukraine is definitely going to have to address the problem eventually, hopefully soon, but I can understand how being invaded by Russia might have made them deprioritize that for now. It feels like a pretty risky move to try to make use of them for now, but desperation is a motherfucker like that.

Christ, you’re 9 of the 18 notifications I have left including this one, and damn near everyone of them had you being a raging asshole. I’ve tried to listen to what people have to say, and I have openly and repeatedly invited people to bring new evidence, and here you are trawlimg my comment history to find new and exciting opportunities to insult me.

It’s like you’re trying to be such an asshole, nobody is ever willing to listen you or interact with you again, like you’re actively trying to drive people away from ever learning to agree with you.

I’ve tried to read what everyone said and reply yo everyone, but you? You can go fuck yourself with a rusty rake. Your abuse has no educational value, so I won’t be reading the rest in detail, I’ll just be blocking you. Maybe I’ll stumble into a Hexbear thread on accident again someday, but I’ll remain blissfully unaware of your shit ass.

Also, not really, his assertions were grossly exaggerated compared to what the sources provided claimed. The truth appears to be in the middle of us somewhere, closer to what I said him in my opinion.

You are 14 out of the 30 notifications I have remaining. I assume the information you say you’ve provided is probably somewhere in there. That’s after the dozens of responses to you and others in here. At a glance, just about every comment from you goes out of its way to belittle and demean me. I admit I’ve matched energy with some people I probably shouldn’t have, probably including you, maybe even been the one to get heated first a couple times, but god damn, man, calm the fuck down.

I’m no longer interested in being the target for your abuse. I’ll read what you wrote so far when I get a chance over the next day or two and consider it. If you have any good information you think I should look at, I invite you to reply with it here, and I’ll try to get to it as soon as I can because, despite what you assume and try to portray me as, I’m open to learning, and I’m trying to do what I can with the meager time I have, like giving up most of my one day off just to try to learn a little from a bunch of assholes who’d rather berate me. I’m trying, I’m open to learning, and you’re determined to make that as painful as possible.

If you feel inclined to reply or message me for anything other than relaying any material you find relevant, please go fuck yourself with a rusty rake instead. I’ll try to give your recommendations an honest shot in the interest of maybe learning something, but you I have no interest in conversing with anymore.

Go ahead and gargle my balls and never reply again. Someone actually showed up, delivered a bunch of sources, and I learned the problem was worse than I thought it was. Still nowhere near as bad as Russia and many in here want me to believe, but worse than I thought when I came in here. I’d say speaking with you was a complete and utter waste of my time, but since the other guy actually provided the info, I’ll settle for telling you to shut the fuck up, gargle my balls, and please never defile my inbox with your inane replies again.

Thank you for actually bringing sources. I’ve tried to find them myself, but search engines heavily favor current events, so it’s difficult to find anything as old as these. I’ve probably asked literally a dozen times for sources in an honest attempt to engage with the subject, and so far, I’m FAR more likely to be verbally abused for not blindly agreeing than to actually receive information. Only one person before you has even done so much as to provide a couple names as decent starting points for research. The sheer amount of vitriol combined with a complete lack of genuine evidence was making me increasingly sure it was completely baseless.

https://www.reuters.com/article/opinion/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUSKBN1GV2TC/

This one makes it clear that the Nazis exist in too large a capacity, but it also outright states that some of the claims that it’s a Nazi regime are just not true. While few in number, they do seem to be receiving a concerning amount of freedom and power. This one makes it seem like the problem is bigger than I expected but still certainly not at the level people here like to portray it as. I can understand the inclination to make a deal to set aside differences temporarily and enable what they perceive to be a lesser threat to aid them against a greater mutual threat, but I’m not so sure it’s a good idea.

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/359609-the-reality-of-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-is-far-from-kremlin-propaganda/

This one paints about the same picture, more prominent than I expected but still nowhere near the system issue portrayed by Russia.

https://www.fairobserver.com/region/europe/the-ukrainian-revolutions-neo-fascist-problem-14785/

This is the first thing I’ve seen that tries to construct a timeline that attempts to pin revolution at the culmination of Euromaidan on the fascistic elements of Ukraine. I’ve certainly heard the accusation here before, but nobody could ever offer anything resembling evidence of it, so this is interesting to see.

I’ve had a bit of trouble following just because the author uses a bunch of unfamiliar names and just assumes I understand them, so I may be misinterpreting things a bit, so correct me if I’m wrong, but it does sort of diminish its own message to some extent. For example,

Having gotten word of this radicalization and quasi-militarization, Yanukovich’s Berkut special police forces paid informal titushki thugs to beat up demonstrators on the night of November 30. The result was the radicalization and militarization of Maidan, and a vindication for the creation of the sotniki and Right Sector.

They’re kinda trying to gloss over it, but it sounds like the government was brutalizing protesters, and a more militant wing of the protests eventually decided that wasn’t gonna fly anymore. Sounds about right for a faction trying to suck up to Russia.

But the Maidan’s sotniki violated the February 21 agreement within hours. Rather than withdrawing from buildings and squares in Kiev, they occupied more buildings and threatened to take the presidential administration and kill Yanukovich. When Yanukovich fled Kiev for Kharkiv, the radicals stormed the parliament and oversaw the president’s illegal impeachment in violation of the constitutional procedure for such. They helped prevent the required quorum and kept down the pro-Yanukovich vote in the impeachment by detaining and sometimes beating deputies from his Party of the Regions. In other words, the ultra-nationalists and neo-fascists spearheaded the revolutionary seizure of power using significant force.

This actually raises an interesting question for this community. My understanding is that the unrest began primarily because the president defied the will of both the legislature and the people to overrule an attempt to build closer ties with the EU and move away from Russia. Feel free to correct me on that if you can provide good evidence for that, but it’s my understanding of the cause.

So you have a president defying pretty much everyone to build ties with a nation that the majority want to move away from. It seems to be pretty widely accepted in this community that violence is an acceptable remedy to that sort of situation. Then is it acceptable for the wrong people to do the right thing here? Let’s accept the premise that the violence of the revolution was driven by the fascist elements. If the government blatantly defies the people it governs and the legislature, is it acceptable for fascists to help correct that, assuming they correct the problem and stop? Obviously, Nazis aren’t prone to stopping when they’re winning, so that’s a problem in its own right, but the waters become murky, and I’d never really considered the possibility of a Nazi faction ending up on the right side of… Anything at all. I really don’t like the idea of working with the Nazis, but which is easier to deal with later, them or the government you’ve yet to overthrow? Do we let the broken clock be right twice a day, or do we step in to make sure they get absolutely no power at all?

Ultimately, I think it’s a dangerous game at best to work with them, so probably not the right call. Still, Nazis are evil because they do Nazi shit, but that doesn’t make everything a Nazi does evil by default. I dislike the can of worms this has opened. I’ll have to think on this more. My gut reaction says tell the Nazis to fuck off, but… I dunno.

More importantly, for his organizational efforts on the Maidan, radical nationalist Parubiy was given the key post of chairman of Ukraine’s Security and National Defense Council. He would focus much of his activity on recruiting his “hundreds” and Right Sector-like groups into the Ukrainian army and National Guard prior and during the “antiterrorist” operation in the east.

This is the first evidence I’ve actually seen that the problem could be considered systemic to any extent. It sounds like it’s not to the extent people try to portray it as, but this does sound like the sort of thing that festers into rot if left untreated. The good news is he only seems to have held the position for a few months, so that was addressed. The bad news is he seems to have gotten elected into parliament. I would hope that was for his aid in the revolution, not for his fascistic views, but it’s still concerning he’d be elected. Somewhat understandable given the recent revolution, that sort of thing can build a cult of personality, but still concerning and a mistake.

None of the above should be construed as a claim that all the forces in the post-Maidan government are neo-fascist, as some Russian statements state or imply.

Even this article denies the Russian stance that Ukraine is just swarming with Nazis, though.

That said, this does paint a picture of Nazis being given far too much leeway, which is concerning in its own right. I’d be interested in an update on the topic given this article is 12 years old.

https://socialistproject.ca/2019/01/why-does-no-one-care-that-neo-nazis-are-gaining-power-in-ukraine/

This is one I have some issues with, primarily because of the sources they’re using. Many are gone, which makes the claims hard to verify, and some of the rest are using sources somewhat questionably. For example,

They’ve marched by the thousands through the streets to commemorate WWII-era nationalist formations who took part in ethnic cleansing. They’ve acted as vigilantes with little to no negative reaction from state authorities.

The source linked as “vigilantes” doesn’t mention anything about vigilantes. Still, the claims seem mostly reasonable, but they’d take a little extra verification.

Members of Ukraine’s far-right also offer themselves up as thugs for hire – sometimes with deadly consequences. This summer, anti-corruption activist Kateryna Handziuk was the victim of a horrifying acid attack. In July, several extremists – who apparently were paid by corrupt local police to carry out the attack – doused her with sulfuric acid, burning her over 40 per cent of her body. She died from her injuries in November.

This is tragic, but it does seem to suggest Ukraine is trying to do something about corruption and has been for the last 7 years at least.

It’s time to talk about why Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, up for re-election in March, is happy to flirt with hardline nationalist rhetoric and hasn’t bothered to condemn incidents like last month’s attack on a peaceful protest.

The good news here is that Zelenskyy won instead, so the populace seems to have opted not to endorse that.

Like the last article, this one does make it seem that nationalists in Ukraine are a bigger problem than I expected but not the problem as it is frequently presented here.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-anti-semitism-racism-and-the-far-right/

This one actually seems to downplay the issue more than the others. It still openly admits that there is definitely a problem with nationalist factions in Ukraine, but it goes out of the way to highlight that there’s little public support compared to other countries like Germany, France, and Italy, so this actually gives me a little hope that the problem can be cleaned up once things are over with Russia.

Overall, my takeaway is that the truth was closer to the middle than I expected. Ukraine is most certainly not crawling with Nazis, but they have allowed nationalists and Nazis to operate with too much impunity. I would be very interested in seeing more up-to-date info if you know of anything worth looking at. I’m concerned that this is a case of trying to weaponize a rabid dog, but I’m holding out hope it can be fixed once they have the stability to look inward again.

Thank you again for taking the time to find some quality information for me to look over.

Let me put it more on your level, then.

You spend much time talk shit. Could spend half minute, find proof, shut me up good. If many Nazis doing Nazi things, should be easy.

You’re spending an awful lot of time and effort to talk shit about how I’m allegedly not engaging in good faith, but if these Nazis were rampant enough to be doing everything you’re pinning on them, because recall that you said these things were being done by a Nazi regime, it should be pretty fucking trivial to muster literally anything to support your claims and shut me up. Just one piece of actual genuine evidence that there’s a Nazi regime in Ukraine, and you’d shut the whole thing down. Instead, you’d rather invest all this time to belittle me and pretend I’m not openly presenting an opportunity to change my mind. The best evidence I’ve seen so far is maybe all of 50 dudes around flags in half a dozen photos at most. Given that asking for evidence of Nazis is more likely to see me verbally abused than to see me actually being shown that there are Nazis in Ukraine, I can only assume that some people are very interested in lying about Nazis in Ukraine. Otherwise, if there were genuinely a massive Nazi problem in Ukraine, surely its opponents would be more open to spreading word of the problem.

In other words, you can’t really refute a single word I said, so you’re going to imply I’m lying and bounce. This is by far the most vitriol I’ve ever faced for openly being willing to consider fresh evidence and change my perspective, and you’ve made it quite clear you’re not arguing in bad faith. I assume you make the accusation against me purely to muddy the waters and make it seems like a simple “no u!” when you’re inevitably called for it.

because your deeply buried post on a week old thread didn’t get any replies

You’re not very good at making assumptions since that’s not it. I’ve only replied asking for evidence to active threads, and I’ve repeatedly gotten responses “attempting” to provide proof. It’s just shit tier proof every single time.

Oh okay. It’s because the military rules the country. That’s why it’s okay to not have democracy anymore.

The military would probably freely give back control if Russia would fuck off back to where they belong. Either way, how exactly do you propose they run the election so that the parts actively being contested by Russia get to vote AND guarantee that Russia, who isn’t even known for election integrity at home, won’t meddle in a foreign election that might get them a submissive leader elected? I’d love to see them have routine elections, and maybe I just haven’t thought it all the way through, but I don’t see how this turns into anything other than either A. An opportunity for Russia to stuff the ballot boxes and force victory by submissive leadership, or B. Disenfranchisement of eastern Ukrainians to protect ballot integrity. I don’t like either option, and I’m guessing you’re extra not fond of option B. Probably pretty keen to let Russia stuff those ballots, though.

And in order to keep the country Ukrainian we need to prevent the people who live there from having any say in what “Ukraine” is.

Almost. To keep it Ukrainian, they need to make sure the active invader with a bad reputation for election integrity doesn’t get a chance to violate the integrity of their election. Since you care so much about their democratic rights, I would think you’d want to be extra sure there wasn’t interference.

Are you so fucking stupid that you’re bringing up your deliberate bad faith as a POSITIVE???

Okay, let me rephrase this on the off chance you’re misunderstanding me. I’m not asking for a super high bar to be cleared. The bar is a tripping hazard in hell, and here you are still trying to limbo dance with the devil. All I want is some evidence that doesn’t show me a tiny fraction and try to make me assume I can extrapolate it to a nation. You know, actual fucking evidence, not a pile of blurry photos with a grand total of 50 people in them, nor a map where none of the fucking points are in Ukraine. I want to see evidence that there are more than 50 Nazis in Ukraine. 50 may still be a lot of Nazis, but it’s not enough to cause the systemic problems people in here like to claim. I am willing to entertain anything you may consider evidence so long as it actually shows a systemic issue. You can decide how to prove that however you want so long as you actually show a systemic issue, not just a handful of raging assholes with a camera and a flag. A few pictures of small groups of Nazis in Ukraine only proves that they are unfortunately not extinct, not that they are the widespread issue you claim they are.

Meanwhile, as I try repeatedly to engage in the topic in good faith, despite your claims to the contrary, you do nothing but belittle and insult me. Rather than turning me to your side, it only further convinces me not only that you are utterly without proof, but that you know the claims you are making cannot be backed by proof. You insult me not because it’s genuinely deserved, but because you’re desperately trying to steer the topic away from the fact that we both know you’re 100% full of shit, at least on the topic of Ukrainian Nazis being the systemic, pervasive issue you claim.

You could have just as easily latched onto my mentioning the ethnic cleansing.

I mean, that’s a key trait of the Nazis. I figured it kinda came together, but alright, I could have been a little more specific and brought it up sooner, but I was really hoping today would be the day someone can actually find the Nazi evidence. Besides, if Nazis are the ones doing the ethnic cleansing, it should be trivial to prove there are Nazis, right?

You could have just as easily latched onto the illegal western coup that stole democracy from Ukraine in the first place.

Tried to go down that road with people several times. Never seems to go anywhere. Everybody likes to call it a coup, but nobody can prove it’s anything other than butthurt that Ukraine moved towards the West.

You could have just as easily stayed on the original topic of conversation and responded to the actual fucking point about how the nazi government you love so much took away the mere trappings of democracy in that country.

You mean how elections are suspended because they’re under martial law? As far as I’m concerned, that’s Russia’s fault. Ukraine is already bound by their constitution, and it would be extremely difficult to change in the middle of war. Ukraine’s choice was to either enact martial law and fight back, losing elections temporarily, or submit to Russia and lose Ukrainian elections permanently. If you want them to be able to vote, get pissed at Russia. They’re free to fuck off back to their own land any time they’d like.

That would be too honest and in good faith for trash like you to engage in.

Oh fucking please, your arrogant ass is just trying to cover up the fact you can’t prove a god damn thing. You’re raging over there like a child that refuses to accept their bedtime because you got called on your slop, and since there’s no real defense of it, you gotta go on the offensive on me directly.

You latched onto the existence of the nazi regime because you have practiced being obstinate and intransigent on this subject. You made it absolutely clear that you wouldn’t even engage in this tangent of yours in good faith by bragging about how no one could possibly convince you and refusing to allow a condition up front that would satisfy your requirements for proof.

My guy, you know what evidence people have managed to bring me? A map of monuments in Europe, of which almost none were in Ukraine. A photo of one dude with a blurry patch next to Zelenskyy that they swear is Nazi symbolism if you squint hard enough. A photo of like two dozen dudes in military-ish gear around a flag that, while certainly concerning, is in no way indicative of a systemic problem. A couple more photos of even smaller groups. I’m not being unreasonable for not calling that definitive proof.

I’m not denying there are Nazis in Ukraine entirely, I’m sure there’s at least some just as there are basically everywhere even if the exact flavor if Nazi varies slightly.

Hell, I didn’t even set conditions on proof. I just said nobody can ever find anything that actually proves shit. They wanna show me some of the bullshit I mentioned early that proves nothing other than that Ukrainian Nazis aren’t entirely extinct. Which, for the record, is a shame, they should be.

You’re an intellectual coward. And that’s exactly how a nazi argues by the way.

You wanna talk intellectual cowardice? Let’s look at your personal attacks. Let’s look at how you came unglued on me the instant I actually requested evidence of your assertion of Nazis in complete good faith, I was ready to learn something. Let’s look at how, in spite of all that, in spite of all your rage over these alleged Nazis, you still won’t even try to find a single shred of genuine evidence

And then, because I won’t buy your story at the very first mention of it, because I won’t take the flimsiest of evidence and run with it, I’m an intellectual coward and a Nazi? I’d say you’re a fucking clown, but frankly, that’d be an insult to clowns. You’re full of shit, I know it, you know it, but you just can’t admit it, especially in public. Do yourself a favor and stop replying. You just embarrass yourself acting like a petulant child.

I’d rather actually get some evidence that Ukraine is as systematically rife with Nazis as people in here like to claim. Once again, for like the 5th or 6th time, I’ve openly stated I’m willing to consider the possibility if only someone can provide some evidence, and nobody can muster anything. I’m trying to stay open minded about it, but the fact that nobody can find anything more than a handful of group photos, it’s starting to smell like a crock of shit.

Oh neat, another shitty piece of “evidence” that doesn’t actually prove the point at hand. I’m not saying it’s a great look, but the vast majority aren’t even in Ukraine, and given the height of the pins, it looks like there probably aren’t even very many in Ukraine. If I’m wrong and there’s a bunch of them in there, then it’s still not good evidence since it can’t make your point clearly.

Do you think it’s been so long that I don’t remember my own post?

I dunno what your deal is, but yeah, you seem to be struggling to keep up with your own bullshit. Two out of three paragraphs were about Ukrainian Nazis, and the third was questioning how I could be cool with that.

Honestly, this just feels like a pathetic attempt to dodge the fact that I was willing to consider proof. It was all fine and dandy to talk about Ukrainian Nazis, but as soon as the topic of proving Ukrainian Nazis are a systemic problem came up, you can’t fathom how we got onto this topic, and clearly I’m just distracting from the real topic somehow by expressing an interest in having your claims verified. You know god damn well it’s a lie, so as soon as evidence comes up, you vehemently disengage from the topic and try to paint me as an idiot and a Nazi apologist. Where my Nazi apologia was just to say that I’d be totally open to looking at evidence they’re a real problem if only someone could actually provide it.

Fucking hilarious you want to call me a Nazi apologist for having the audacity to question an imperialist aggressor’s narrative. It’s obvious your fragile little ego can’t handle getting called out for the shit you spew, so you result to personal attacks like a child.

My guy, your entire fucking post was about Ukrainian Nazis. So I responded and discussed Ukrainian Nazis. What the fuck do you want to talk about if it’s not Ukrainian Nazis, and why didn’t you just say that in the first place? If it’s such a tangent, it’s one you went down and I followed, but now it’s my fault we’re here somehow. And once again, there’s still no evidence of the Nazis being widespread, so this just feels like trying to dodge the fact that someone actually called for evidence.

Tangent? Your post was about Ukrainian Nazis. Let’s look back at it.

If you cared about the will of the people you wouldn’t have violently overthrown their government and installed a regime of literal nazis to murder and suppress the population you pretend to weep for.

I apparently don’t care about them because I’m not resisting this Nazi regime that nobody can prove is anywhere NEAR extensive enough to qualify as an actual regime.

But then again if you cared about the people of Ukraine AT ALL you wouldn’t be okay with them living under a nazi regime LET ALONE happily giving those nazis absolute power to decide when and if they ever give up absolute power.

Again, I’m allegedly terrible for not caring about the alleged Nazis.

So like all right wingers, I have to wonder. Where are you on the evil/stupid continuum? Do you espouse your views because you are fully self aware as a devoted nazi partisan? Or are you tied for the dumbest person to have ever lived?

Basically a bunch of questioning if my tolerance of the Nazis is stupidity or evil.

So… You ranted about Ukrainian Nazis. That was the central focus of your post. I then claimed that while I have repeatedly tried to be open to the possibility, nobody can ever seem to muster evidence that it’s anything more than a few relatively small groups, at least on a nation scale, being grossly exaggerated.

And then you act confused and treat me like I’m going off on a tangent to dodge some greater point, you absolute clown.

You’re the one who made the claim the Ukrainians are living under a Nazi regime. I basically said I’ve seen evidence that there are Ukrainian Nazis in existence, but nobody can ever muster evidence that it’s systemic or anything other than a few groups that, while disturbingly large, are nowhere near big enough to represent the majority. I’ve tried to invite proof several times, but I’m increasingly convinced it’s bullshit.

I’ve seen a lot of claims of Nazis in Ukraine, and to be totally fair, there have been pictures of disturbing large groups around symbols, but nobody ever seems able to muster any genuine evidence there’s a systemic problem. Everything anyone has ever been able to show me has attempted to make big leaps to stretch scant evidence into more than it is. I’m open to being proven wrong, but the last several times I offered the chance, I got the same load of half assed bullshit. I’ve tried several times to give the claim a chance, but it increasingly sounds like a tiny grain of truth blown up into a mountain of Russian butthurt.

Zelenskyy doesn’t get a say in whether or not there are elections. It is not his decision. It’s the Ukrainian constitution.

He also didn’t personally ban the political parties. A national defense council or something like that, I forget the name, made the decision. And the decision only lasts while they’re under martial law. And it’s parties with ties to Russia, the country actively invading them. Boo fucking hoo, the invader’s allies are restricted.

So… Nothing you said was accurate. At all.