Okay I would just upvote and move on, but you’re clearly baiting with that title so if it’s alright with you let’s have some banter :P
If I say that
- the meme is on point
- material conditions in China are to some extent better than the US
- the US is definitely worse to its own people and the world
- I’m staunchly anti-capitalist
but I also say that I still don’t like the Chinese state because I don’t consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)
Am I a “lib”?
but I also say that I still don’t like the Chinese state because I don’t consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)
“Socialism is worker ownership of the means of production” is a syndicalist distortion of socialism. Workers should control the means of production, as in their operation should be based on popular consensus, but “ownership” suggests something like cooperatives (or, you know, syndicates), which operate on the same market system and a permutation of petite-bourgeois races to the bottom that we see under capitalism.
The people must control the state, “win the battle of democracy,” and via their control of the state dictate what happens to the means of production. Specific ownership is a secondary concern, though I agree with what I assume your position is, that the bourgeoisie have been granted too much power and authority in China.
Kinda? What do you think socialism looks like, if not the PRC? What about the PRC makes it not “genuine worker control,” or more broadly, Marxism-Leninism not “genuine worker control?”
It’s mostly to do with how the workers aren’t in control of anything
They are, though. China is a democratic country, and public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy. Polling shows genuine democracy:
What would worker control have to look like for you to accept it?
but I also say that I still don’t like the Chinese state because I don’t consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)
We’ve shown many times how the PRC is a worker-owned-and-controlled econoxy, and how the worker’s congresses function in action.
If you don’t consider any actually existing country that’s trying to build socialism “up to your standard”, then you should re-evaluate the basis of your opposition. If you kow-tow to every western-supremacist talking point about how Vietnam, the PRC, the DPRK, and Cuba "aren’t doing socialism correctly because they aren’t as smart as [insert western-supremacist marxist here], then yes, you are a liberal.
Can you define what the word means to you exactly?
What word?
the meme is on point
I disagree: they could’ve used real photos instead of AI generated images.
e.g. I looked at a map and picked the first large city I saw that I’ve never heard of, then looked up some images: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Nanjing%2C+Jiangsu%2C+China&iar=images&t=h_
Pretty sure that’s a toll booth. They widen to allow cars to queue and then narrow back down to transition back to free flowing traffic. It’s not a 50 lane highway merging to 20 lanes, it’s a 20 lane highway widening into a 50 lane queuing area and then merging back to 20 lanes to continue being a highway.
Here’s one in the glorious freedom country:
(Source)
Is this a 20 lane highway merging into a 3 lane bridge?
But yes, China does have a car dependency problem. Something the government has acknowledged and is implementing aggressive policies to combat. From building full metro systems in all major cities in the same time it takes NIMBYs in America to shoot down a single line, to high speed rail, to literally restricting who can drive on what days based on whether you have an odd or even first number on your license plate. What’s America doing? Oh right, doubling down on car dependency and killing what little alternatives there were and calling people who speak out against it “woke.”
I’ve been to China plenty, they def aren’t living like this lol. Who believes this shit.
That’s funny because literally China is one of the countries with the highest approval of their government by independent studies.
So even if you’re telling the truth the vast majority of the Chinese people disagree with your sentiment.
Their comment wasn’t about government approval.
Do you think a people who were living in poverty and had terrible living conditions would be overwhelmingly supportive of their government? Come on now think for a second here.
The following is just a really odd way to convince someone of something in my opinion.
- “China is one of the countries with the highest approval of their government by independent studies.”
- Government approval is inversely correlated with poverty and terrible living conditions.
- Therefore it is unlikely that “they def aren’t living like this”
It’s also especially odd if you’re mentioning independent studies. Are there not independent studies about the living conditions?
And to be clear, I don’t even disagree with you. I think a lot of westerners are affected by racist/orientalist views (or whatever you wanna call them) without realizing it. It just felt like a strange way to counter the thought process.
I mention “independent studies” because people are insane and will call anything pro-China you say as just Chinese propaganda.
Nothing I was said was about “independent studies” versus “studies”. I get your point, I’m just saying that wasn’t part of what I found odd. I only used the phrase independent studies instead of studies because you did.
I gotta give you this one. I had a sensible chuckle. Development in China has been crazy!
Socialism in action, which allows for long-term planning and acheiving societal goals.
I don’t think it’s the socialism, but a competent authoritarian government
It raises hackles any time someone unironically uses the term “authoritarian”, because its always used to demonize the non-white countries, and especially those that were successful in opposing the US imperialist project, which has killed more innocent people than any other empire in world history.
The PRC has not been in a war since its minor skirmish with Vietnam back in the 70s. It’s also lifted more people out of poverty in the last few decades than any other country in history. By contrast the US has killed hundreds of millions of people, attacked our coup’d nearly every country, and its people are increasingly living in poverty and homelessness.
Secondly yes, the PRC is socialist, read this or any of the other texts ppl below have made.
If you restrict free speech I consider that authoritarian. I’m not ignoring that Western countries don’t do this, because they do and are also authoritarian.
Are you a free speech absolutist? Can I post your address with a rough outline of your schedule and say that you deserve to be murdered? Not telling anyone to do it, mind you, merely that you “have it coming.”
I don’t think that I (or anyone) should be able to do that, though I also believe that the process for “restricting” speech in this manner should be arrived at democratically, i.e. society itself should decide what is and isn’t permissible to say. Am I authoritarian on that basis?
All states are “authoritarian,” though, what truly differs is which class is in control and exerting that authority. In China, it’s the working class, which is why the west is terrified of it.
Itt: workers who have no money, no rights (including to be homeless, hungry, and sick, specifically because of our exploitation beyond human, let alone civil) arguing their union -busting, police and war machine funding, all seeing eye government and economic system is superior to the government and economic system that checks notes give them no say in anything that matters.
Yep, sometimes it’s difficult for people to genuinely put themselved in other’s shoes and consider if their preconcieved notions may be wrong.
This thread is a testament to the years of china bad slop that white supremacist liberals have been eating.
Major props to all the patient comrades below trying to educate these stubborn klansmen.
It sure does seem like people who support white supremacist systems and help push supremacist propaganda don’t like being called white supremacists.
Wait, I’m a white supremacist because I don’t want China - or anyone else - to manipulate Tibet or persecute Uygurs? I’m a Klansman because I lean to supporting Taiwan’s independence?
Do, like, MLs just hate everyone? Honestly, why are MLs so extremely hostile to people they don’t 100% agree with?
to manipulate Tibet or persecute Uygurs
The people selling this false narrative are white supremacists, not the Tibetan or Uyghur people.
I’m a Klansman because I lean to supporting Taiwan’s independence?
Taiwan is pretty much if the US confederates lost the civil war, then escaped to Cuba, killed all the people there, and set up a state. Read about what mass killings the Kuomintang did to the indigenous peoples of Taiwan when they escaped there.
I didn’t make my point clear. I don’t have any strong opinions on these matters I brought up, outside “genocide is bad” and other basic ethics. I’m admitting I don’t know much about them, not due to apathy but due to… just information fucking overload. It’s absurd to equate me with white supremacists just because I can’t keep up with everything going on in the world to exacting detail.
I apologize for being too combative… it just gets exhausting for us to debunk the same points over and over again, especially since the US has a near total monopoly on anglophone media sources.
We should oppose actual genocide, like the one Israel is carrying out on the Palestinian people with US help, not fake ones like the “white genocide” or “uyghur genocide” which are employed against perceived enemies of the white/western world.
There is no genocide in Xinjiang nor, as the accusation used to go, in Tibet. Frivolously accusing an enemy of the west that it’s committing genocide, the crime of crimes, when those accusations mainly feed into narratives used to try to balkanize that enemy of the west does present a certain impression. I have no opinion on your character, but I would gently suggest that if you don’t have a strong opinion then it doesn’t make sense to go around making confident assertions, as you clearly did in the case of Xinjiang (because you surely know the argument being suggested by Cowbee and company is not that the PRC is committing genocide and that such a genocide would be good).
Your statement on Taiwan is perfectly consistent with how you characterize yourself, however we might disagree, because it was expressed as supporting a side in an issue where there is some consensus on what the sides represent, though obviously I and other communists will say that if you want an independent Taiwan, you I guess want a global revolution because in the current world there is no possibility for an independent Taiwan, like there is no possibility for an independent Tibet, because it will either be part of China or it will be controlled by the US.
Not having a strong opinion on the issues of Taiwan, Xinjiang, and Tibet is exactly why you’ve been fed misinformation your entire life on them. It’s very easy to take government propaganda at face value that way.
It’s common for chauvanists to side with the US Empire’s claims about Tibet, Xinjiang, and Taiwan, as well as the framing of these issues. For westerners who utterly lack the background knowledge required to even begin untangling these subjects, to side with the world’s largest Empire against a rising socialist country it has every means and desire to lie about, this teeters into chauvanistic territory. I think anyone trying to get a realistic view of these subjects needs to also explore the Chinese perspective, as well as the global south.
Marxist-Leninists don’t hate everyone, we have a deep love for the working class and a hatred for oppression. The reason MLs can seem hostile is because we have to deal with the same arguments day in, day out, unceasingly. This manifests in frustration, lashing out, etc. It gets increasingly frustrating when Marxist heroes like Marx, Fred Hampton, Che, Frantz Fanon, Walter Rodney, Rosa Luxemburg, etc get passes from liberals due to their martyrdom or dying before being in a position of influence, while liberals follow the US Empire’s line on existing and practicing Marxists, and those who lived long enough to succeed.
That’s very diplomatic, and I appreciate you taking my question seriously. But Dess is a core personality of the Lemmyverse and insulting a huge swathes of people using their platform really puts a lot of distance between the ML community and people they could potentially sway.
Unless MLs aren’t interested in swaying more people to their side and just want to preach to the choir.
I’m going to continue being wrong and harmful because you were mean pointing out that I was wrong and harmful
My petty feelings are literally the most important thing in the world so I will never look past them
You’re not talking down to me. I’m talking down to you. So now I feel better. I’m the adult here. I’m good.
Are… are you trying to shame me into agreeing with you? Does the “militant” in Militant Leftist actually mean rageposting and not armed resistance?
No, they are saying that you’re diverting a conversation from who is correct to whether or not your interlocutor was rude to you as a waiver for disregarding the substance of what they said. You can disagree, but presenting yourself as having not been courted appropriately is not going to be taken seriously.
I do actually agree with you that they should speak more gently. Their current behavior is a maladaptive coping mechanism from being inundated with literally thousands and thousands of Redditors who say mostly the same things and won’t flinch before likening them to a Nazi or something.
If you can be faithful to my position and at the same time make me look like a stupid baby you could very well convince me through shame to rethink my position.
Are you without shame? Can you not be compelled to change your behavior through the negative regard of others?
I can’t agree with discrediting comrades that don’t hold their tongues for the sake of more civil outreach. I don’t disagree with the point Dessalines is making, even if I personally try to go about things in a less confrontational matter. One thing I’ve noticed is that some people do respond better to “wake-up calls,” so to speak, so I let them go and do my own thing.
As for outreach, I do care, I even made an introductory Marxist-Leninist reading list, I update it frequently, and try to help explain things in simpler ways. I don’t claim to represent all MLs, but education and outreach is a huge part of our role, and our practice.
Why do you use the liberal label? I’ve been hearing this “China bad” shit from the right for years
Because the entire US political spectrum fits nearly inside of “neoliberalism”. Liberalism in general is just capitalism+.
I think the world liberal is used… Liberally. I usually equate it in the US political term for left of center (or rather the opposite of conservatives), but I know the entire US political system is hijacked - both “sides” answer to the same overlords
Yes, the entire spectrum of the DNC and GOP falls under liberalism to fascism, there are pretty much no leftists in US politics.
And the revisionist has entered the chat… lol Right on cue, mate.
It’s almost like socialism works and US propagandists have been telling us nothing but lies.
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lol @ that dork who can’t be bothered to read a few paragraphs on Tibet and does the “China bad!” unironically.
They’re also an eco-fascist “leftist,” and just say “all countries are bad” and that “humanity should go extinct.” There’s nothing that seems to be capable of convincing them of being worthy of support.
did hexbear and ml defederate partially somehow?
No, most of the complaining is from top-level .world accounts so they are invisible to hex.
Imperial core drones in the comments be like
What cities?
Pick any city in the Midwest and compare to any proportionally sized city in China. Like just about. Infrastructure is crumbling everywhere in this country while China has built more high speed rail than every other nation on the planet combined.
The priorities speak volumes.
🤣
