“Authoritarian” is largely a meaningless term. All it really means is one group using force against another group, but it doesn’t say anything about which group is which. In the US Empire, the capitalists use the state to crush the workers, and export genocide and chaos to the global south. In the PRC, the working class uses the state to keep the capitalists in check as they progress and develop along socialist lines. This stark difference in which class is in power is shown with immense popular support in the PRC:
Although state censorship and propaganda are widespread in China, these findings highlight that citizen perceptions of governmental performance respond most to real, measurable changes in individuals’ material well-being. Satisfaction and support must be consistently reinforced. As a result, the data point to specific areas in which citizen satisfaction could decline in today’s era of slowing economic growth and continued environmental degradation.
The CPC does restrict the speech of capitalists, yes. However, the reason the people support the CPC is because of dramatic improvements in living conditions, not fear of the state.
The data from the source I provided on perceptions of democracy is from 2024. The Ash Center Study proves that this isn’t a recent thing, the CPC has broad support and successfully maintains it. Here are even more sources on the matter.
You have a hypothesis but no evidence that it actually matters.
Alright, you did convince me that the Chinese people report strong support to the CCP and report a strong perception of democracy.
What I am still not convinced of however, is that PRC IS democratic.
In my book, for a country to be democratic it needs to have:
Freedom of speech
Freedom of press
Freedom of reunion
Freedom of protest
Universal access to education
Political plurality
Universal suffrage
Universal respect of human right
My opinion today is that, I highly doubt PRC qualifies to any of this points, but I don’t know for sure. If you convince me with credible evidence that PRC is better than, let’s say, France, Germany or Norway, on all these points, then I am ready to move to China with you next year.
Edit: I forgot a few important point on my democratic list of requirements:
Laicity (division of state and religion and tolerance for all religions)
Division of power (Legislative, Justice, Executive, etc, must be help by different institution regulating each other)
First of all, you have a very liberal-minded understanding of democracy. A lot of these values are really only “valid” in as much as they apply to capitalists in the west. For example:
Freedom of Speech
Freedom of Press
Both of these only exist in the west as far as they can be abused by those with enough money to buy the media narrative. In China, speech of capitalists and misinformation is cracked down on, but the working class is largely left to speak what they want.
Freedom of reunion (I take to mean freedom of assembly) is partially valid. As China is a socialist country, and the class struggle is very much still alive, creating groups opposed to socialism is cracked down on more. However, there exist many specialty groups, in fact there are 8 political parties other than the CPC that work cooperatively with the CPC when it comes to governing.
Freedom of protest is fine. Protests and public backlash are what caused the CPC to back off on COVID restrictions, even though the CPC was correct. You can’t really aim to overthrow socialism or anything, but protests for example are often supported by the CPC against capitalists.
Education is kept extremely cheap in China. Schools are extremely competitive as well, partially because of how many people there are competing for the top universities, but overall education is extremely affordable. It isn’t free as far as I’m aware, but it isn’t a block for the working class.
Regarding political plurality, there’s a saying in China: “let a hundred flowers bloom, a hundred schools of thought contend.” I recommend this article on Roland Boer’s trip to China.
As for universal respect of human rights, China does quite well, and unlike the countries you listed, it isn’t imperialist. France, Germany, Norway, the west in general, all depend on vast looting and plundering of the global south. China doesn’t, it runs on largely its own production, which is why countries in the global south are flocking to China for construction contracts and to join the Belt and Road Initiative.
Imperialist countries in the west use vast exports of capital to super-exploit international labor for super-profits, that’s where western safety nets come from. Essentially, you can think of the west as capitalists in country form, exploiting those under their domination, while China is aligned with the global south and doesn’t have that private domination of finance capital that enables imperialism in the first place.
I’m not moving to China anytime soon. I can’t speak Mandarin, and I have friends and family where I live. I do organize with communists, though, and would love to bring about socialism in my country.
Edit for your edit:
Religion is protected.
As for “separation of powers,” this circles back to you having a thoroughly liberal understanding of politics. Government should cooperate in a functional society, not work against itself. Capitalist countries rely on this instability of government in order to keep capital on top, but there’s no actual reasoning for it. The churn, the competition, it’s all by design to keep society turned against itself instead of cooperating.
I stated that all states are “authoritarian,” all are methods by which one class exerts authority over another. The only way out of “authoritarianism” is to fully collectivize production, eliminating class distinctions. Until then, it’s better for capitalists to be under the thumb of the workers, rather than the inverse. Like I said, it’s a largely meaningless term.
Meta argument: charts like this are basically useless.
I was raised in a very religious town. If you asked, the people in that town would say “my religion is a religion of love” “people should be as free as possible because it’s an extension of personal agency” and all the while they beat their kids and would rather die than let gay or trans people be themselves.
They can quote the scriptures and could likely write some pretty strong rhetoric implying they are loving and kind and caring, but it wouldn’t be anywhere near the truth.
Point is that just because you get phrases pounded into your head doesn’t mean you truly believe them or even know what they imply.
If your country’s rhetoric specifically states that the government serves the people and says it over and over, regardless of the truth of that statement, people will have a tendency to select it. (Like if your government called itself the people’s republic…)
If you asked Americans and Chinese if they think personal freedom is important, you’d likely get the reverse pattern in your graph. Is this because America has more freedom? No, more likely it’s because the historical rhetoric we get exposed to emphasizes “freedom” whereas China’s revolutionary rhetoric was centered around “democracy”
If you asked Americans if they support socialism, you’d get lower bars than if you asked it indirectly. Just using the word socialism skews your metric.
People will say they support or don’t support concepts they don’t understand, or that they view in a different light than others. Does democracy mean more than two political parties? Does democracy mean no capitalism? Does democracy require freedom to spread information freely? Etc.
So once again these metrics are useless because I’d imagine most of these countries’ voters would disagree on what the statements even mean.
You’d have more of a point if the fact that the people of China support their system wasn’t regularly proven in various metrics, not just a single poll.
You are believing in a fantasy. There are countless countries around the world that are arguably more socialist than China without even calling themselves such. Quite frankly, I trust actions and numbers more than words.
Okay, but we are talking about a country where you aren’t allowed to form a political party that opposes the CCP, right? How can we tell the difference between “hell yeah, my country is making my life great” and “there is exactly one answer to this survey question that will not get me in trouble”? I always try to keep in mind that I am not immune to propaganda, but I’ve personally known Chinese people who have very explicitly declined to offer any criticism of the Chinese government or go against the party line, even in private conversation, because they didn’t want trouble.
Yes, capitalists are prevented from undermining socialism. If you read the studies, the reason the people of China support their system is because it supports them and represents their interests.
But it’s also a ban on other socialist parties, not just capitalist ones, and it plays directly into the talking point that socialism is an authoritarian system that is imposed on people, not chosen on its merits. If the CCP really has enjoyed resounding, unwavering support from the proletariat for 75 years straight, why appear so weak by never allowing any competition whatsoever?
I’m a big defender of China when the “China Bad” crowd comes out, but this graph is meaningless beyond what people’s perceptions are.
Real trade unions are banned. All must be part of the party, workers rights are routinely not enforced, and given the lattitude the government has to act, there isn’t really much of an excuse.
The CCP enjoy massive support, though, this is undeniable. The reasons for this support is debatable and vary from person to person.
I for one, very much enjoy when the Chinese government does things in line with my socialist ideals. But let’s not pretend like they’re actually keeping the capitalists in check. There are many, many billionaires in China, something that ought not be possible under an actual socialist country.
It doesn’t take a genius to look at their system of voting to quickly conclude that you don’t really have a say, the People’s Congress functions as a rubber stamp for what the inner party has already decided.
Again, my opinions aside, people in China generally are supportive of the government at this present time.
“Authoritarian” is largely a meaningless term. All it really means is one group using force against another group, but it doesn’t say anything about which group is which. In the US Empire, the capitalists use the state to crush the workers, and export genocide and chaos to the global south. In the PRC, the working class uses the state to keep the capitalists in check as they progress and develop along socialist lines. This stark difference in which class is in power is shown with immense popular support in the PRC:
Can you please provide a source for the graphic?
It’s in the bottom left, here’s another bunch of sources.
Better answer the survey correctly when you live in a country that has laws like “disagreeing with the government is a crime”
Understanding CPC Resiliance
The CPC does restrict the speech of capitalists, yes. However, the reason the people support the CPC is because of dramatic improvements in living conditions, not fear of the state.
The data from this article is up to 2016. Things have changed quite a bit since the COVID crisis.
The data from the source I provided on perceptions of democracy is from 2024. The Ash Center Study proves that this isn’t a recent thing, the CPC has broad support and successfully maintains it. Here are even more sources on the matter.
You have a hypothesis but no evidence that it actually matters.
Alright, you did convince me that the Chinese people report strong support to the CCP and report a strong perception of democracy. What I am still not convinced of however, is that PRC IS democratic.
In my book, for a country to be democratic it needs to have:
My opinion today is that, I highly doubt PRC qualifies to any of this points, but I don’t know for sure. If you convince me with credible evidence that PRC is better than, let’s say, France, Germany or Norway, on all these points, then I am ready to move to China with you next year.
Edit: I forgot a few important point on my democratic list of requirements:
First of all, you have a very liberal-minded understanding of democracy. A lot of these values are really only “valid” in as much as they apply to capitalists in the west. For example:
Both of these only exist in the west as far as they can be abused by those with enough money to buy the media narrative. In China, speech of capitalists and misinformation is cracked down on, but the working class is largely left to speak what they want.
Freedom of reunion (I take to mean freedom of assembly) is partially valid. As China is a socialist country, and the class struggle is very much still alive, creating groups opposed to socialism is cracked down on more. However, there exist many specialty groups, in fact there are 8 political parties other than the CPC that work cooperatively with the CPC when it comes to governing.
Freedom of protest is fine. Protests and public backlash are what caused the CPC to back off on COVID restrictions, even though the CPC was correct. You can’t really aim to overthrow socialism or anything, but protests for example are often supported by the CPC against capitalists.
Education is kept extremely cheap in China. Schools are extremely competitive as well, partially because of how many people there are competing for the top universities, but overall education is extremely affordable. It isn’t free as far as I’m aware, but it isn’t a block for the working class.
Regarding political plurality, there’s a saying in China: “let a hundred flowers bloom, a hundred schools of thought contend.” I recommend this article on Roland Boer’s trip to China.
As for universal suffrage:
>All citizens of the People’s Republic of China who have reached the age of 18 have the right to vote and stand for election, regardless of ethnic background, race, sex, occupation, family background, religious belief, education level, property status or length of residence. People who have been deprived of their political rights according to law do not have the right to vote and stand for election. One voter has only one vote in each election.
As for universal respect of human rights, China does quite well, and unlike the countries you listed, it isn’t imperialist. France, Germany, Norway, the west in general, all depend on vast looting and plundering of the global south. China doesn’t, it runs on largely its own production, which is why countries in the global south are flocking to China for construction contracts and to join the Belt and Road Initiative.
Imperialist countries in the west use vast exports of capital to super-exploit international labor for super-profits, that’s where western safety nets come from. Essentially, you can think of the west as capitalists in country form, exploiting those under their domination, while China is aligned with the global south and doesn’t have that private domination of finance capital that enables imperialism in the first place.
I’m not moving to China anytime soon. I can’t speak Mandarin, and I have friends and family where I live. I do organize with communists, though, and would love to bring about socialism in my country.
Edit for your edit:
Religion is protected.
As for “separation of powers,” this circles back to you having a thoroughly liberal understanding of politics. Government should cooperate in a functional society, not work against itself. Capitalist countries rely on this instability of government in order to keep capital on top, but there’s no actual reasoning for it. The churn, the competition, it’s all by design to keep society turned against itself instead of cooperating.
Not as well supported by sources as you previous replies, such a shame. But you gave me a good laugh 🤣
In what way is this funny?
So you consider a state censoring all it’s citizens from discussing certain words and topics to not be authoritarian?
I stated that all states are “authoritarian,” all are methods by which one class exerts authority over another. The only way out of “authoritarianism” is to fully collectivize production, eliminating class distinctions. Until then, it’s better for capitalists to be under the thumb of the workers, rather than the inverse. Like I said, it’s a largely meaningless term.
Meta argument: charts like this are basically useless.
I was raised in a very religious town. If you asked, the people in that town would say “my religion is a religion of love” “people should be as free as possible because it’s an extension of personal agency” and all the while they beat their kids and would rather die than let gay or trans people be themselves.
They can quote the scriptures and could likely write some pretty strong rhetoric implying they are loving and kind and caring, but it wouldn’t be anywhere near the truth.
Point is that just because you get phrases pounded into your head doesn’t mean you truly believe them or even know what they imply.
If your country’s rhetoric specifically states that the government serves the people and says it over and over, regardless of the truth of that statement, people will have a tendency to select it. (Like if your government called itself the people’s republic…)
If you asked Americans and Chinese if they think personal freedom is important, you’d likely get the reverse pattern in your graph. Is this because America has more freedom? No, more likely it’s because the historical rhetoric we get exposed to emphasizes “freedom” whereas China’s revolutionary rhetoric was centered around “democracy”
If you asked Americans if they support socialism, you’d get lower bars than if you asked it indirectly. Just using the word socialism skews your metric.
People will say they support or don’t support concepts they don’t understand, or that they view in a different light than others. Does democracy mean more than two political parties? Does democracy mean no capitalism? Does democracy require freedom to spread information freely? Etc.
So once again these metrics are useless because I’d imagine most of these countries’ voters would disagree on what the statements even mean.
You’d have more of a point if the fact that the people of China support their system wasn’t regularly proven in various metrics, not just a single poll.
The state used the police to crush the working class when they demanded the money from the banks that invested it in a runaway housing scam.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/11/china-violent-clashes-at-protest-over-frozen-rural-bank-accounts
You are believing in a fantasy. There are countless countries around the world that are arguably more socialist than China without even calling themselves such. Quite frankly, I trust actions and numbers more than words.
Using a western, anti-communist news source for a report on how China is supposedly crushing the working class? Color me shocked! You have no points.
Okay, but we are talking about a country where you aren’t allowed to form a political party that opposes the CCP, right? How can we tell the difference between “hell yeah, my country is making my life great” and “there is exactly one answer to this survey question that will not get me in trouble”? I always try to keep in mind that I am not immune to propaganda, but I’ve personally known Chinese people who have very explicitly declined to offer any criticism of the Chinese government or go against the party line, even in private conversation, because they didn’t want trouble.
Yes, capitalists are prevented from undermining socialism. If you read the studies, the reason the people of China support their system is because it supports them and represents their interests.
But it’s also a ban on other socialist parties, not just capitalist ones, and it plays directly into the talking point that socialism is an authoritarian system that is imposed on people, not chosen on its merits. If the CCP really has enjoyed resounding, unwavering support from the proletariat for 75 years straight, why appear so weak by never allowing any competition whatsoever?
There are 8 other minor parties in China.
I’m a big defender of China when the “China Bad” crowd comes out, but this graph is meaningless beyond what people’s perceptions are.
Real trade unions are banned. All must be part of the party, workers rights are routinely not enforced, and given the lattitude the government has to act, there isn’t really much of an excuse.
The CCP enjoy massive support, though, this is undeniable. The reasons for this support is debatable and vary from person to person.
I for one, very much enjoy when the Chinese government does things in line with my socialist ideals. But let’s not pretend like they’re actually keeping the capitalists in check. There are many, many billionaires in China, something that ought not be possible under an actual socialist country.
It doesn’t take a genius to look at their system of voting to quickly conclude that you don’t really have a say, the People’s Congress functions as a rubber stamp for what the inner party has already decided.
Again, my opinions aside, people in China generally are supportive of the government at this present time.