Libs be like “this is a totally organic movement with broad local support”
Take a moment to imagine the absolutely demonic levels of McCarthyism that would be unleashed if it was discovered that BLM or the Green Party were headquartered in Beijing.
Don’t forget they also love Israel. Xinjiang avoided the fate of Gaza and all the people complaining about China being “heavy handed” there should just shut up.
Responding to a federated comment because I don’t have a .ml account:
Okay, but we are talking about a country where you aren’t allowed to form a political party that opposes the CCP, right?
There are eight other parties in the People’s Republic of China other than the *CPC
I just gotta pop in and say: thank you, comrades, for absolutely making my morning by dunking on some capitalists’ useful idiots.
Anytime comrade 🫡
Yes, true
Thank God that in China you can’t simply be “disappeared”, you won’t be sent to reeducation camps, and you won’t be slaughtered.
Right?
Yea yea yea, just keep parroting those liberal talking points ROFL
It’s so weird to me that there are people, like you, who completely ignore established facts just because these facts reflect negatively on some group that you like.
It’s like you’re completely incapable of understanding that nothing is 100% perfect, and that good people can sometimes do bad things and that (applies here) bad people sometimes do good.
The Chinese government has implemented a shit tonne of repressive rules, it’s committing genocide, but to you that must be a lie because they did something that you like.
It must be nice being 15 years old
China? The US is currently more compeeting with North Corea respect freedom and human rights.
and who supports north korea?
US is in a situation where even the Chinese government can make fun of how undemocratic it is. I think this explains a lot.
This is your brain on black-and-white thinking
Nah dude, nobody talked about an in-between. China bad, and America going bad too. In his image op implies people think that because China bad, america cannot be lol. That’s stupid
Yall would be demonizing the Algerians or Vietnamese people fighting for their independence from France’s ruthless colonial rule as “authoritarian”, and “both sides bad”.
I was gonna reply stuff but I don’t see how I could gain anything from it ? I was initially saying op’s take implied something stupid (note that I’m not saying your scapegoats don’t exist; but if they do they’re probably a minority), and that yours created a kind of “moderate” persona who’s always in between political views to mock that other user’s comment about not everything being all black or white. Which I replied to by affirming China already black and america going darker.
And now you’re bringing more unrelated shit into athe situation lol. Isolating both china and america they both look like shit, albeit one more than the other. Idk who the fuck is in your “y’all” but it doesn’t really matter to me and I don’t feel targeted. I don’t know enough about the stuff you tried to push on me to properly debate anyways, so I’m just gonna go sleep and enjoy my night lol.
Yes, both countries have serious problems. At least Americans can discuss theirs openly.
Tell that to Malcolm X, MLK, or Fred Hampton
And it’s not like those were one-offs, COINTELPRO was crazy in scope and did massive damage beyond just the murders.
It’s not like that’s all in the past either, just look at how the Palestine protests were handled as well as the Floyd protests.
At least Americans can discuss theirs openly.
Lol have you seen what’s been happening to pro Palestine protestors? BLM protestors? Anti Trump protestors? Julian Assange? Edward Snowden?
So do Chinese citizens, though. The state exerts control over private media and the speech of wealthy capitalists, but there’s broad diversity in political thought and discussion.
Really? So Chinese citizens can go out and publish an article about why they believe Xi Jinping is actually betraying socialist ideals?
Some have. They’d be wrong, so it’s not super common, but it’s possible, assuming they aren’t a wealthy capitalist or something.
Chinese too, and openly in the US currently not so much. People in China are heavy controlled by the Gov, but they have more civil rights and services as citizen in the US
Complete list of banned books in the US. (Autoscroll enabled, due to the hugh amount of those, stop/start with mouseclick)
https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/a45012950/banned-book-list/
US Freedom and Human rights only exist in Fox News.
Complete list of banned books in the US
Lmao what? Do you know what “banning” a book means? It’s just not on offer in schools or a library for that specific state. It’s completely normal to just buy it for yourself and there are even organizations dedicated to distributing banned books.
It’s hilarious to try and dunk on America with this of all things. Media restricted/censored in China is entirely unavailable. It’s actually very interesting how the censorship manifests in daily life, but I imagine any .ml reader will discard those anecdotes (or any verifiable reports) and try to redirect back to the West somehow.
The freedom to shout into the void and have none of your concerns addressed.
Not to mention the fact that China has far more open discourse than the US and its media organs / capitalist controlled platforms allow.
I’ll take “things foreigners say when they’ve never been to China” for 500 Alex
I’ll take “sexpat that’s been to China, never left his bubble and is a China expert now” for 500 alex
Never claimed to be any kind of China expert but it’s absurd to claim “much more open discourse” if you’ve spent any appreciable amount of time in the countries being discussed. You can literally just walk + talk in public and see the difference.
Like all these asserted freedoms it just magically happens better and free’er but you definitely can’t verify it because “media”. The open political discourse I see and hear in major EU/US cities pales in comparison to the uh… hidden… open discourse in T1/T2 Chinese cities? Definitely heard some first/second hand political discourse but it was never, ever, ever a public forum.
By all means, give me evidence to the contrary. Maybe I just keep catching China with a bad case of the Mondays. Have you been? Can you point to any discourse on domestic politics? Where is the asserted diversity of opinion on hotbed issues? Can you show me any strong opposition to the party line on a public stage?
I guess you’ve never been on weibo westoid
I have! Have you been on it in China? Have you contrasted the foreign feed to a citizen’s? Have you seen the coordinated response to genuine spreading political discontent vs mundane petty scandals? Because it kinda sounds like you haven’t if you think that’s a killer response.
I have! And I have my Chinese friends feed too. Inside and outside of china. There’s definitely differences, but that’s how algorithms work
Have you seen the coordinated response to genuine spreading political disconten
Yes i have seen it. They solve things pretty fast e.g. COVID lockdowns when minor protests broke out, petit bourgeois real estate protests, etc. doesn’t look like you pay attention to things like that
Chinese average citizens can freely discuss what they want, the “disappearing” is just western propa
Really? So Chinese citizens can go out and publish an article about why they believe Xi Jinping is actually betraying socialist ideals?
I’ve spent some time in Shanghai and that was not my experience there.
My cat’s breath smells like cat food.
Cool story
K
both are. have fun fighting eachother in the mud.
All states are authoritarian, in that they are instruments by which one class oppresses the others. What this doesn’t say anything about alone, though, is which class is in power. In the US Empire, the capitalists are in power, and use the authority of the state to crush workers when workers rise up. In the PRC, the working class is in power, and the state keeps capitalists in check and appropriates their capital gradually.
The only way out of authoritarian control by any class is to get rid of classes entirely, which requires full collectivization of production. China is actively building towards that, the US Empire is opposing it. Until we get to a classless society, it’s better for the working class to be in charge.
In other words, class struggle will continue to exist even after the proletariat takes control. All of the tensions from class struggle continue to exist, only they are resolved in favor of the working class. This is what “authoritarianism” looks like, class conflict expressed in state response.
“the working class” meaning the (one) party tho, lol.
Yes. Democracy isn’t about choosing between parties, but having substantive input on direction that results in the will of the people being carried out. This is true of China, policy is typically driven from the bottom-up, a process called “whole process people’s democracy.” This is expressed, as an example, through Five Year Plans that are the result of mass polling and suggestions among the populace. The CPC has over 100 million members in a country of 1.4 billion.
The state isn’t a class in and of itself, it can only serve as representative of a class. In the PRC, that class is the working class. The communists beat the nationalists in the Chinese Civil War, and from that point on the working class has been in control.
Fun fact: It’s actually possible for two countries to both be authoritarian!
I redefine authoritarianism to “when people want things”, but when I implement authoritarianism I’ll use the more commonly understood description of authoritarianism.
People really need to stop getting their views from the internet.
They should get them from TV and newspapers right!?
“Authoritarian” is largely a meaningless term. All it really means is one group using force against another group, but it doesn’t say anything about which group is which. In the US Empire, the capitalists use the state to crush the workers, and export genocide and chaos to the global south. In the PRC, the working class uses the state to keep the capitalists in check as they progress and develop along socialist lines. This stark difference in which class is in power is shown with immense popular support in the PRC:
Can you please provide a source for the graphic?
It’s in the bottom left, here’s another bunch of sources.
So you consider a state censoring all it’s citizens from discussing certain words and topics to not be authoritarian?
I stated that all states are “authoritarian,” all are methods by which one class exerts authority over another. The only way out of “authoritarianism” is to fully collectivize production, eliminating class distinctions. Until then, it’s better for capitalists to be under the thumb of the workers, rather than the inverse. Like I said, it’s a largely meaningless term.
Okay, but we are talking about a country where you aren’t allowed to form a political party that opposes the CCP, right? How can we tell the difference between “hell yeah, my country is making my life great” and “there is exactly one answer to this survey question that will not get me in trouble”? I always try to keep in mind that I am not immune to propaganda, but I’ve personally known Chinese people who have very explicitly declined to offer any criticism of the Chinese government or go against the party line, even in private conversation, because they didn’t want trouble.
Yes, capitalists are prevented from undermining socialism. If you read the studies, the reason the people of China support their system is because it supports them and represents their interests.
But it’s also a ban on other socialist parties, not just capitalist ones, and it plays directly into the talking point that socialism is an authoritarian system that is imposed on people, not chosen on its merits. If the CCP really has enjoyed resounding, unwavering support from the proletariat for 75 years straight, why appear so weak by never allowing any competition whatsoever?
There are 8 other minor parties in China.
Better answer the survey correctly when you live in a country that has laws like “disagreeing with the government is a crime”
Although state censorship and propaganda are widespread in China, these findings highlight that citizen perceptions of governmental performance respond most to real, measurable changes in individuals’ material well-being. Satisfaction and support must be consistently reinforced. As a result, the data point to specific areas in which citizen satisfaction could decline in today’s era of slowing economic growth and continued environmental degradation.
The CPC does restrict the speech of capitalists, yes. However, the reason the people support the CPC is because of dramatic improvements in living conditions, not fear of the state.
The data from this article is up to 2016. Things have changed quite a bit since the COVID crisis.
The data from the source I provided on perceptions of democracy is from 2024. The Ash Center Study proves that this isn’t a recent thing, the CPC has broad support and successfully maintains it. Here are even more sources on the matter.
You have a hypothesis but no evidence that it actually matters.
Alright, you did convince me that the Chinese people report strong support to the CCP and report a strong perception of democracy. What I am still not convinced of however, is that PRC IS democratic.
In my book, for a country to be democratic it needs to have:
- Freedom of speech
- Freedom of press
- Freedom of reunion
- Freedom of protest
- Universal access to education
- Political plurality
- Universal suffrage
- Universal respect of human right
My opinion today is that, I highly doubt PRC qualifies to any of this points, but I don’t know for sure. If you convince me with credible evidence that PRC is better than, let’s say, France, Germany or Norway, on all these points, then I am ready to move to China with you next year.
Edit: I forgot a few important point on my democratic list of requirements:
- Laicity (division of state and religion and tolerance for all religions)
- Division of power (Legislative, Justice, Executive, etc, must be help by different institution regulating each other)
First of all, you have a very liberal-minded understanding of democracy. A lot of these values are really only “valid” in as much as they apply to capitalists in the west. For example:
- Freedom of Speech
- Freedom of Press
Both of these only exist in the west as far as they can be abused by those with enough money to buy the media narrative. In China, speech of capitalists and misinformation is cracked down on, but the working class is largely left to speak what they want.
Freedom of reunion (I take to mean freedom of assembly) is partially valid. As China is a socialist country, and the class struggle is very much still alive, creating groups opposed to socialism is cracked down on more. However, there exist many specialty groups, in fact there are 8 political parties other than the CPC that work cooperatively with the CPC when it comes to governing.
Freedom of protest is fine. Protests and public backlash are what caused the CPC to back off on COVID restrictions, even though the CPC was correct. You can’t really aim to overthrow socialism or anything, but protests for example are often supported by the CPC against capitalists.
Education is kept extremely cheap in China. Schools are extremely competitive as well, partially because of how many people there are competing for the top universities, but overall education is extremely affordable. It isn’t free as far as I’m aware, but it isn’t a block for the working class.
Regarding political plurality, there’s a saying in China: “let a hundred flowers bloom, a hundred schools of thought contend.” I recommend this article on Roland Boer’s trip to China.
As for universal suffrage:
As for universal respect of human rights, China does quite well, and unlike the countries you listed, it isn’t imperialist. France, Germany, Norway, the west in general, all depend on vast looting and plundering of the global south. China doesn’t, it runs on largely its own production, which is why countries in the global south are flocking to China for construction contracts and to join the Belt and Road Initiative.
Imperialist countries in the west use vast exports of capital to super-exploit international labor for super-profits, that’s where western safety nets come from. Essentially, you can think of the west as capitalists in country form, exploiting those under their domination, while China is aligned with the global south and doesn’t have that private domination of finance capital that enables imperialism in the first place.
I’m not moving to China anytime soon. I can’t speak Mandarin, and I have friends and family where I live. I do organize with communists, though, and would love to bring about socialism in my country.
Edit for your edit:
Religion is protected.
As for “separation of powers,” this circles back to you having a thoroughly liberal understanding of politics. Government should cooperate in a functional society, not work against itself. Capitalist countries rely on this instability of government in order to keep capital on top, but there’s no actual reasoning for it. The churn, the competition, it’s all by design to keep society turned against itself instead of cooperating.
In the PRC, the working class uses the state to keep the capitalists in check
The state used the police to crush the working class when they demanded the money from the banks that invested it in a runaway housing scam.
You are believing in a fantasy. There are countless countries around the world that are arguably more socialist than China without even calling themselves such. Quite frankly, I trust actions and numbers more than words.
Using a western, anti-communist news source for a report on how China is supposedly crushing the working class? Color me shocked! You have no points.
I’m a big defender of China when the “China Bad” crowd comes out, but this graph is meaningless beyond what people’s perceptions are.
Real trade unions are banned. All must be part of the party, workers rights are routinely not enforced, and given the lattitude the government has to act, there isn’t really much of an excuse.
The CCP enjoy massive support, though, this is undeniable. The reasons for this support is debatable and vary from person to person.
I for one, very much enjoy when the Chinese government does things in line with my socialist ideals. But let’s not pretend like they’re actually keeping the capitalists in check. There are many, many billionaires in China, something that ought not be possible under an actual socialist country.
It doesn’t take a genius to look at their system of voting to quickly conclude that you don’t really have a say, the People’s Congress functions as a rubber stamp for what the inner party has already decided.
Again, my opinions aside, people in China generally are supportive of the government at this present time.
Meta argument: charts like this are basically useless.
I was raised in a very religious town. If you asked, the people in that town would say “my religion is a religion of love” “people should be as free as possible because it’s an extension of personal agency” and all the while they beat their kids and would rather die than let gay or trans people be themselves.
They can quote the scriptures and could likely write some pretty strong rhetoric implying they are loving and kind and caring, but it wouldn’t be anywhere near the truth.
Point is that just because you get phrases pounded into your head doesn’t mean you truly believe them or even know what they imply.
If your country’s rhetoric specifically states that the government serves the people and says it over and over, regardless of the truth of that statement, people will have a tendency to select it. (Like if your government called itself the people’s republic…)
If you asked Americans and Chinese if they think personal freedom is important, you’d likely get the reverse pattern in your graph. Is this because America has more freedom? No, more likely it’s because the historical rhetoric we get exposed to emphasizes “freedom” whereas China’s revolutionary rhetoric was centered around “democracy”
If you asked Americans if they support socialism, you’d get lower bars than if you asked it indirectly. Just using the word socialism skews your metric.
People will say they support or don’t support concepts they don’t understand, or that they view in a different light than others. Does democracy mean more than two political parties? Does democracy mean no capitalism? Does democracy require freedom to spread information freely? Etc.
So once again these metrics are useless because I’d imagine most of these countries’ voters would disagree on what the statements even mean.
You’d have more of a point if the fact that the people of China support their system wasn’t regularly proven in various metrics, not just a single poll.
The US killed a million innocent people in Iraq just a few years ago, and is *currently * drone bombing several countries in ME and north africa, and is currently supporting the apartheid state of israel with billions of dollars in military aid.
The PRC has not been in a war since its skirmish with Vietnam in 1979.
The US has a network of > 800 military bases across the globe, and has been involved in regime change in nearly every country.
Which one is authoritarian?
Uighurs
Tibet
Supporting Russia in Ukraine
- https://dessalines.github.io/essays/socialism_faq.html#whats-going-on-with-the-uyghurs
- https://redsails.org/friendly-feudalism/
- https://historicly.substack.com/p/tibet-china-and-the-violent-reaction
- https://stalinsmoustache.org/2018/09/19/maos-liberation-of-tibet/
- http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2015/february/02/obama-admits-us-role-in-ukraine-overthrow/
Ya and that’s why they don’t let tourists into Tibet without a guide.
Next you’re going to tell me Putin isn’t the aggressor.
We don’t need anti-American propaganda, we already hate America, my guy
You mean temporarily until Trump is gone so they can bomb brown people democratically
- No, I didn’t
- Are you an ML? If so, why are MLs so antagonistic to non-ML lefties? American Democrats, I can understand, but why be so extremely dichotomous about who your allies are?
I don’t know you, you could’ve been a US dem or som EU ‘social democrat’ or whatever calls themselves lefties.
I formulated the general sentiment of that group, overly represented on .world and crying about Trump’s america.
I’m not antagonistic to lefties, only the pseudo-lefties.
If you’re not one of then don’t feel targeted.
You would be part of a small minority here tho.
Which one is currently genociding Uhygurs? Which one illegally annexed Tibet and Hong Kong? Both countries are authoritarian shit-holes.
Which one is currently genociding Uhygurs?
none of them
Which one illegally annexed Hong Kong?
the uk, then they gave it back in 97
most historically literate .worlder
Only one country is genociding muslins.
“illegally annexed” Hong Kong LMAO
illegally annexed… Hong Kong
what
Like I can get not agreeing with it but illegally annexed how do you expect to be taken even a little seriously
I keep hearing ‘illegal war’ in the media.
What the fuck is a legal war? A war faught by lawyers?
While the transfer of power itself was fine and legal, didn’t they break the basic law they put in by violating people’s rights and freedoms? I do agree that it’s worded badly though
It’s weird to me that this particular law was the one the colour revolutionaries rallied behind.
A Hong Kong resident confessed to having committed a murder on Taiwan. China extradites people summoned for court or with arrest warrants issued by the Taipei rebel government to Taiwan as long as it’s for non-political offences. So they would extradite this murderer to be tried on Taiwan.
Different parts of China have different laws, because it’s a big country with autonomous regions. Hong Kong, not that big, but for historical reasons have their own laws as well. If someone has an arrest warrant issued by one of the other Chinese governments, they will extradite the person to their jurisdiction. If it’s a different country, with which China has an extradition treaty, then they will extradite them to Beijing (the Chinese national government) and Beijing will send them to that other country.
Taiwan is neither a separate country, nor a Chinese government whose arrest warrants Hong Kong respects. But the guy confessed to murder. He should be tried. So new legislation is required to make it legal to extradite him to Taiwan, either directly or through Beijing.
That was the initial controversy.
Nope, only one of them is a shithole.
Which one illegally annexed Tibet
I’m pretty sure virtually all of the Tibetan people are happy to no longer be suffering under theocratic feudalism. Happy to no longer be illiterate serfs and slaves, suffering depredation under a god-king. I doubt many of them are sad that CIA asset Dalai “suck my tongue” Lama is in exile. [1] [2]
and Hong Kong?
Entirely legal. In fact it would have been illegal for the UK not to hand it over.
The UK’s 99 year lease to subjugate Hong Kong ended. A lease which had been forced upon Imperial China at gunpoint during the century of humiliation. Hong Kong reintegration after the lease expired was a foregone conclusion. The last minute, US-backed attempt at color revolution failed.
Which one is currently genociding Uhygurs?
Neither, but one of them trained, funded, and organized terrorists in the region, and then made up a genocide narrative, and then imposed illegal sanctions on it using the fabricated genocide narrative as a pretext. Previously.
Idk if it’s just me, but it’s insane to bring up Uhygur genocide, which has not been in the news or mentioned at all for years, while we watch US funded Israel blowing up starving children on a daily basis.
Look up the definition of authoritarianism. Bombing other countries is not the defining feature of an authoritarian government.
Terms like Authoritarianism and Totalitarianism were defined or entrenched by a lot of western supremacist authors, who needed to twist terminology in such a way that excluded the US (capitalism’s worldwide enforcer and the cause of so much death and destruction) from any wrongdoing, while demonizing the colonial world who fought back against the US for their own sovereignty as “authoritarian”.
I highly suggest reading Losurdo’s - Western Marxism, for an in-depth analysis of some of these white supremacist authors, and how they demonize the anti-colonial struggle.
You might be interested in a book by Lenin titled: “Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism”.
That’s cool and all but still irrelevant to the original point. You can be authoritarian to your own citizens domestically without invading other nations.
The US is both imperialist and authoritarian.
So, authoritarian is when they don’t bomb other countries, and libertarian is when they bomb every day?
Nope didn’t say that at all, nice try though. You can be authoritarian and not bomb other countries and you can be authoritarian and bomb other countries.
Foreign affairs dont necessarily effect that determination.
The US I’d say is authoritarian and imperialist.
A country like Saudia Arabia or North Korea is just Authoritarian and tend to at least only meddle with boarding nations.
“They can both be authoritarian”
“WELL USA INVADED IRAQ”
Lmao
scale matters my guy. One is not committing war crimes at least.
Well duh, it’s just a funny reply to the statement that they’re both authoritarian
It’s possible, but it’s objectively not the case. Don’t take my word for it though, it’s what people actually living in China say.
- https://www.newsweek.com/most-china-call-their-nation-democracy-most-us-say-america-isnt-1711176
- https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2021/0218/Vilified-abroad-popular-at-home-China-s-Communist-Party-at-100
- https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-06-26/which-nations-are-democracies-some-citizens-might-disagree
- https://web.archive.org/web/20230511041927/https://6389062.fs1.hubspotusercontent-na1.net/hubfs/6389062/Canva images/Democracy Perception Index 2023.pdf
- https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-say-people-98686
- https://web.archive.org/web/20201229132410/https://en.news-front.info/2020/06/27/studies-have-shown-that-china-is-more-democratic-than-the-united-states-russia-is-nearby-and-ukraine-is-at-the-bottom/
That’s why deepseek refuses to criticize the CCP
🙄 Previously.
I absolutely love how libs have just memorized a handful or talking points they regurgitate like chatbots.
Except one country is authoritarian and lying about the authoritarianism of China
China?
Except one country is authoritarian and lying about the authoritarianism of China
Oh, right. China.
Right now the US is led by fan of xi and putin, so no surprise he wants to implement the same things there.
If that was actually true, then NATO would be dissolved and the US would be trying to dedollarize and join BRICS.
I love the liberal fanfic that he’s completely subservient to the bad foreigners, but won’t do the things that would benefit them the most because… uhh… he’s hiding his power level or something? 5D Chess? I dunno
Yea, there are far easier and better ways to capitulate if he wanted to.
Not when he wants to appear that he fights for America.
That’s a lot of effort for no personal payoff, lol. There’s no reason to believe it’s true.
And what do you think is happening when he is saying he won’t honor article 5 of NATO treaty?
Why is he pushing India (one of biggest proponents of BRICS that didn’t want to get rid of dollar) toward Russia by imposing tariffs so high that are essentially an embargo?
He’s bad at his job and is flailing around because the US Empire is finding the end result of hollowing out domestic industry for decades.
Idk what sort of DuPont/Monsanto/Pfizer cocktail y’all got in your drinking water but I stg I listen to any voting gringo talk politics and y’all start frothing at the mouth with the most unhinged theories. Tinfoil sellers gotta be making a killing over there.
Both are garbage. The US is just a bigger pile of garbage (for now).
Hi, CIA
Totally both are garbage. But from anti-colonial and anti-authoritarian perspective, US has always been garbage. Trump only removed the pretensions. I mean, Joe Biden affirmed that US will invade Holland if any Americans are arrested by the International Court there. So much for a country that purports rules based international order, if the most supreme power the world has ever seen confirmed that such rules and order don’t apply to them.
recently found out this is a shunned view on a lot of lemmy
