SlAvA UkrAnI!
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You obviously don’t get it. He had a reason to suspend elections AND it was legal for him to do so. Totally fine then.
From the latest Perceptions of Democracy index, from NIRA Data:
Ukrainians are among the most skeptical of the democratic processes in their country. Meanwhile, even a country as hotly contested as Venezuela, faith in elections is skyrocketing. And this is gathered by a western org run by a NATO official.
As always, I would like to point out that these kinds of surveys of public opinion are not really evidence of anything besides public opinion itself.
You cannot assert that a certain country has more or less of some quality simply because more people in that country said they think they do more frequently than people in a different country did.
For example if you asked Americans (particularly those in the south or rural areas) if they thought their country was more “free” than the rest of the world, you would probably get higher numbers than you would from most other regions of the world despite the fact that America is not that free relative to much of the world.
Trends in perception, as well as comparison, does tell a good story. In many ways it’s a superior method of data gathering on democracy than the standard method of defining democracy as whatever the Nordics are doing, and then grading everyone based on how closely they follow that.
Direct comparison of perception of democracy by people who have lived in both countries would be much clearer evidence of differences in democracy itself.
However, the raw perception of democracy without any other reference to other democracies does not allow for comparison/measurement of democracy itself but rather indicates how happy individuals feel within their current democracy.
The data is a good story and it does encode information, but that information is more significantly influenced by culture, current events, and overall happiness of the populace than it is by “level of democracy”
Sure. When I mean comparison, I mean in trends. If a country scores lower in one year while another scores higher, and this trend repeats, it’s a sign of improving and decaying conditions. Democracy isn’t really something you can measure directly, which makes the entire subject pretty muddy.
that’s why I put quotes around “level of democracy.” If everyone in a country had to vote directly for any and all government action, that is kind of the purest democracy possible, but it would not be a very effective method of government especially for large countries.
In order to rank democracy in a meaningful way, one would need to decide on what the desired outcomes of a “good” democracy are and which outcomes are most important etc. which would make the scale subjective.
Even that would not be democratic, as it ignores the role of ownership of production and distribution. In a capitalist economy, such would still be subject to the same mechanisms preventing bourgeois democracy from following the will of the proletariat.
Ukraine needs to have elections
The thing is their constitution states that during a time of war they can’t.
Oh well since it’s legal then that’s alright. Guess slavery is fine too, as long as the constitution says it is.
Abraham Lincoln was given a choice to not hold elections during the American civil war but he understood the war is at the will of the people. Are we afraid the Ukrainian people will vote against the war?
You can’t let a pesky volk get in the way of the endsieg
Abraham Lincoln was given a choice
And Zelenskyy is not given a choice. Their constitution forbids it. Are you suggesting that Zelenskyy should seize more power beyond that granted by the constitution?
From NIRA data.
Great. Then have an election!
I don’t see any blue states going along with any potential attempts by Trump to cancel the election. There is literally nobody who is going to invade mainland USA in the next 3 years. It’s just not in the cards. In Ukraine, women my age notice that 10% of their dating pool is gone (dead, moved abroad, missing?). The average US citizen is going to experience whatever obvious false flag, just something less impactful than 2020s “wearing masks”, even if that’s literally a drone strike from Latin America, and they’re going to cancel elections over it?
I still think their play is that if Trump is succeeded by another Republican or if Trump himself becomes too unpopular, they coup him, and we wind up with a military junta. The libs would be so busy applauding their ‘saviors’ that they wouldn’t even notice their rights being taken away until it’s too late. I think the capitalists are tired of democracy, and want to be able to drop the pretenses without ceding control.
lol if you think Venezuela is not a dictatorship.
Venezuela is more democratic than western countries. Why is it that westerners demonize revolutionaries for not following the political process, and demonize electoralists for following the political process anyways? Because both are threats to capital.
…maybe because many westerners are worried about losing their democracy? I mean, when democracies Fall, they usually don’t make room for better democracies, historically speaking.
Westerners in general don’t have democracy, capitalists have democracy in the west. That’s why the implementation of socialism is necessary, bringing democracy to the working classes and kicking out the capitalists.
Just because the majority of the people in a country disagree with you doesn’t mean it’s not a democracy. In many western countries there are (still) free and fair elections. This is verifiable. But democracy lives off of active participation, and there are people (read: fascists) who see democracy as a threat and do everything they can to sow FUD in order to reduce election participation.
Elections are not indicative of democracy. The fact that capital is what determines which parties are viable, what candidates are allowed to run, and controls the entire economy means that elections in capitalism are more of a pressure valve than an actual way to get your voice across. Capitalism is incompatible with working class democracy.
True… thankfully the glorious US bombed those undemocratic dictator fishing ships and invaded their country to righteously kidnap their undemocratically un-elected president and his heinous wife while killing people.
Now it gets to be a true democracy! Where their country starts going through liberalization and worsening social nets as their future is sold off to private sectors. Truly no longer a dictatorship.
2 bads don’t make 1 good.
The US has done a whole lot more than 1 fucking bad
I know. What’s your point? I’m not claiming US is a utopia, or have done no harm, I’m not even doing any claim about US. My claim is Venezuela is a dictatorship, and I think arguing “It is not, because US bad” is not a valid refutation to my claim.
My claim is Venezuela is a dictatorship
Have any proof for that claim? Or honestly even a proper analysis of the Venezuelan system and in what ways you believe it doesn’t serve the people/the people aren’t in control?
Maduro is so incompetent he blundered and allowed mathematical evidence of the past elections being rigged. Here’s an extensive analysis of that by Terrence Tao: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2024/08/02/what-are-the-odds-ii-the-venezuelan-presidential-election/
Usa rigs almost every election in the world. Collect some evidence about this too, or you’re just an imperialist propagandist (and kidnapper-bootlicker).
The two bads you’re lumping together are mass murder and “a disreputable source didn’t like how you ran that election”
Actual harm versus theoretical harm at some point in the future to a non material concept
You’re deranged
And that’s not even getting into the fact that the non-harm you elevate was used as justification to commit the mass murders you diminish.
Psycho.
I was pointing out the logical fallace in claiming Venezuela is not a dictotarship just because US is a horrible country.
Oh okay so you were just ignoring how the outside world is the context for this conversation.
So you’re just a fundamentally dishonest and unserious person. And you’re actively defending the side the murders in the hundreds while attacking the side getting murdered.
Lol you still believe what the Epstein Burger Reich tells you about other countries, that’s fucking embarassing
What does this post have to do with Venezuela
Ah yes, a dictatorship where American puppets can b¡tch and moan about not letting the US ravage their countries can partake in elections.
Just stop consuming the Eagle Burger Institute slop my dude.
They literally had an election and it was a very close run thing we’re the US backed puppet nearly won.
But yeah, sure, it’s a dictatorship, whatever…
The elección was rigged and there even was mathematical evidence of it. That’s ignoring that Maduro had like 8 vote options all for himself.
Nice source. Damn, look at those funders. The Goldman Sachs philanthropy fund 🤣
https://www.dejusticia.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/MEMORIA-ECONOMICA-830131150-2024.pdf
Did you take any to look at the mathematical argument being done? Ad hominems are usually taken as bad faith in academics, and this is an académico argument.
It was a big a notice on the math world in the zone, no surprise it was being reported a lot. In any case, to satisfy your and hominem, here’s an article published in a mid-left Colombian newsletter https://www.elespectador.com/opinion/columnistas/hector-abad-faciolince/democracia-totalitaria-y-matematicas/
Even Terrence Tao reported on the issue: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2024/08/02/what-are-the-odds-ii-the-venezuelan-presidential-election/
If you have mathematical arguments against Terrence’s, I would love to read them.
An ad-hominem is when I attack you or your character. I pointed out that your source is likely extremely biased.
And for the mathematical argument, the numbers he’s analysing don’t even match the reported votes in this other source that is highly critical of Maduro.
https://www.freiheit.org/venezuela-electoral-fraudster-president-venezuela
The reason for the discrepancy is the numbers are from when the CNE first oficially declared Maduro the winner of the elections. The numbers Terrence used are given by CNE’s president himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1v1y1_8AKY.
The source you provided uses the last numbers given by the CNE.
If the elections were rigged, I’d prefer that to having a filthy imperialist gringo bootlicking politician in office, anything the PSUV has to offer is way better for the people in Latam. I don’t give two fucks about satisfying your Western idea/ideal of whatever putrid thing you think democracy is. What an honour that the likes of you don’t think this is a democracy.
Oh no the troll farm discovered lemmy.
It is so funny when you paranoid white Americans insist that anything that isn’t stroking the dick of your establishment must be a troll farm
Communists have been on Lemmy since the beginning.
LMBO yeah and they keep making zionazi liberal instances like lemmus.org
so much pro russian propaganda in the meme channel, crazy
Actually, the opposite.
Crazy to see many imperialist supporters trying to justify Western capitalist puppets/allies
Also pretty crazy to watch a bunch of anti-imperialists laud imperialism just because it happens to be against their perceived enemies, The West. Lies in favor of Putin and against Ukraine are fucking rampant in this community, and you would think they’d be opposed to a war of conquest, but so long as The West is hurt, they’ll justify literally anything.
The imperialists’ favorite scammery: Redefining imperialism.
Oh, please, if you think Russia isn’t interested in conquering and expanding, I’d say I have a bridge to sell you, but you probably already got cleaned out.
I’m not saying the US is good, that’s classic whataboutism.
I’m not saying the US is good
Just that everything it says about its geopolitical rivals can be assumed to be true.
Whataboutism is a made up propaganda concept popularised by a zionist and spread by the CIA.
Just for factual correctness (don’t actually care about your opinion) - no Israeli election was cancelled. Bibi himself lost an election in 2020.
Ukraine being less democratic than Israel is not the gotcha its supporters expected
Well, that’s an insta-block.
What part of martial law do you not understand?
A country being invaded can be and will be overthrown if possible. In fact, it’s been done many times in European imperialist history.
That’s why the clause exists, even before democracy was normalized in Europe. Just find someone else in line for procession and install a puppet prince.
It’s even been abused. Some speculate that Trump would trigger martial law to stay in office - or even Netenyahu himself clinging to power.
In the end you don’t want a captured government. That’s also historically been really bad.
Letting democracy exist is bad because then the government might change hands.
Gotcha.
Read history, bro - instead of suckling at the feet of Putin. Martial law does not exclude democracy, as democracy is more than national elections and representative democracy (not that you’d know anything about that) - but a change in government can actively sabotage defences and weaken a nation to be overrun by a foreign agressor 👏 while 👏 the 👏 nation 👏 is 👏 being 👏 invaded.
But tell me how Maripol being leveled is somehow good for renovation plans.
Go back to reddit
Because then the government might be corrupted and perverted by the active aggressor with massive incentive to do so.
Or at least that’s what the fascists will say if anyone votes against continuing the war
Well there’s already a shitload of doubt over the referendums that happened after Russia invaded. The doubt is especially bolstered by the fact that polling data suggested sentiment favored moving away from Russia when they all of a sudden show up, hold a vote in regions they fully control, and win with a wildly impractical something like 95%. It’s not even good lying. It’s “fuck you, what are you gonna do about it?” lying.
“it wasn’t close therefore it is fake”
Who was voting? What was the voting about?
“Oh they asked people who had their democratic government couped by a hostile foreign power and had nazis installed that proceeded to ethnically cleanse them and take away their rights whether they wanted to stay part of that country”
And they didn’t want to?
“Yeah the only possible interpretation was they were brainwashed”
“it wasn’t close therefore it is fake”
No, it was fake because polling data that was relatively recent to the election was in gross conflict with the results. Imagine you lived somewhere with a large expat American population. Imagine that polling specifically in the region full of American expats showed that the clear majority did NOT want to join the US and that the trend over time is for the sentiment to get STRONGER, not weaker. Now imagine the US invades, a referendum on secession and annexation by the US is held almost immediately, and the vote is exactly what the US wants, the people increasingly did NOT want, and they claimed the vote was 95% in their favor. You’d never buy that load of bullshit, but if Russia does it, and it’s perceived to be against The West…
Oh so imagine the opposite of the situation we’re talking about.
No.
Who collected this polling data? Have a link/source? From everything I’ve seen the east was firmly pro yanukovych and Crimea specifically formally petitioned for Russian intervension after the 2014 coup. And while the Donbass didn’t formally petition they literally went to war for the right to split away from Ukraine.
Zelenskyy didn’t cancel elections, though. They’re legally forbidden in Ukraine during martial law, which is only still in effect because Russia is still invading. If anyone canceled Ukrainian elections, it’s Putin because the choice for Ukraine was either submit and lose elections permanently or resist and enact martial law, losing them temporarily.
Oh well since he had a reason to suspend elections indefinitely and it was legal for him to do so… Nothing at all wrong with that. That’s not textbook dictatorship shit or anything.
Just like how it was legal for him to make a bunch of opposition parties illegal. Since it was legal there’s no issue at all.Zelenskyy doesn’t get a say in whether or not there are elections. It is not his decision. It’s the Ukrainian constitution.
He also didn’t personally ban the political parties. A national defense council or something like that, I forget the name, made the decision. And the decision only lasts while they’re under martial law. And it’s parties with ties to Russia, the country actively invading them. Boo fucking hoo, the invader’s allies are restricted.
So… Nothing you said was accurate. At all.
Ah yes because the only way one can influence politics is by directly making the decision.
A national defense council or something like that, I forget the name, made the decision. And the decision only lasts while they’re under martial law.
Oh well since it’s legal and they have to do it due to martial law I guess their hands are twisted. Such unfortunate circumstances really.
And it’s parties with ties to Russia, the country actively invading them. Boo fucking hoo, the invader’s allies are restricted.
I personally think it is a bad thing when habeas corpus gets dissolved. I think it’s a bad thing when you get arrested because the government does not like who you associate with. Even if my government were to think my associates are undesirables. But that’s just me, thinking you should be free to do stuff like talk to people. Or write in Russian. Or speak russian. Or vote. Or at least vote in the regions that aren’t actively invaded, which is part of the whole martial law thing. But that’s just me, thinking people should have their democratic rights protected. I suppose if you’re a fascist you think it’s awesome when ethnic minorities get persecuted, the freedom of assembly gets destroyed, the right to vote, the right to speak out and so many other rights get suppressed, is awesome. Especially since it’s legal to do. It’s not like governments ever lie or anything, it’s not like there’s any reason to doubt their motives, it’s not like the political parties that get targeted are very conveniently the ones in opposition. It’s not like politicians ever try to construct a narrative about what they do.
In fact I remember when Putin invaded he said word for word “I am invading Ukraine. I don’t care what people think. I do this because I am evil, I want to make Russia bigger and I am jealous of zelensky. I order this personally and in spite of the popular will.” That’s how it works after all. These guys can’t lie, so he must’ve said that.I’ve got my dunks in, so I’m gonna block you now, since it’s obvious you’re too thickheaded to understand what is being told.
Zelenskyy didn’t cancel elections, though. They’re legally forbidden
Yeah, not every nation wants to deal with securing elections in an active war zone, especially against an opponent heavily incentivized and willing to put their thumb on the scale however they can.
Yeah not every nation wants to do that. Some nations are fascist dictatorships.
Put that right next to ‘two things can be true at once’ in the library of trying to conjure thoughts from nothing but pure passive voice.
especially against an opponent heavily incentivized and willing to put their thumb on the scale however they can
Sorry you’re not allowed to have a democracy because someone might try to convince you to vote against me.
Love me, I’m a liberal.
Sorry you’re not allowed to have a democracy because someone might try to convince you to vote against me.
I can’t believe you’re genuinely this unimaginative. Do you really think Russia would limit themselves to propaganda? Do you think Russia respects the democratic process enough to not interfere in an election where getting the right leader might mean submission, annexation, and victory? The same Russia that was the origin for multiple bomb threats on polling locations during the US 2024 election? The same Russia that’s constantly fraught with internal accusations of election fraud? That Russia?
And that’s why democracy is for another time.
I mean… If the election has a really high chance of not genuinely reflecting the will of the people because an outside force is guaranteed to attempt to interfere with the election… Yeah, it’s kinda not the time because you’re going to choose based on the will of the invader, not the will of the people.
If you cared about the will of the people you wouldn’t have violently overthrown their government and installed a regime of literal nazis to murder and suppress the population you pretend to weep for.
But then again if you cared about the people of Ukraine AT ALL you wouldn’t be okay with them living under a nazi regime LET ALONE happily giving those nazis absolute power to decide when and if they ever give up absolute power.
So like all right wingers, I have to wonder. Where are you on the evil/stupid continuum? Do you espouse your views because you are fully self aware as a devoted nazi partisan? Or are you tied for the dumbest person to have ever lived?
This is hilarious especially when it comes to Ukraine. History began in 2022 I guess.
It’s also funny with Russia lmao. Yeah it’s definitely the russians that are the issue when it comes to election interference lmao.
Russia is clearly after the Donbass, not all of Ukraine. Elections will persist even after the almost certain conclusion, that being full annexing of the 4 oblasts. This is the sensible outcome, considering western Ukraine coup’d the president supported by the Donbass region in a Banderite takeover:
Since the Banderite coup in 2014, Ukraine has been in a civil war where Kiev has been ethnically cleansing the Donbass region. The Minsk agreements were both tanked by Ukraine and the west, meaning diplomatic solutions to the Civil War were tried, and failed.
If Russia is clearly only after Donbass, why did they open by trying to seize the capital?
If Russia is clearly only after the Donbass, why did it try to quickly force an end to the war before thousands of people died and a bunch of infrastructure was destroyed? Truly a conundrum.
Leverage my man
And you think Russia would have just traded it back for Donbass? Lol. Lmao, even.
No I think they would and did use it to apply political pressure and relieve military pressure from other fronts by drawing enemy reserves. “Trade it for the Donbas” what are you nine?
My point is that Russia definitely wanted it, and they definitely wouldn’t have come off of it if they conquered it. Pretending it was just a feint or that they didn’t really want the capital is just whitewashing Russia’s war of conquest.
This is you deciding what you want to be true in the face of all evidence to the contrary to preserve the very simplistic good guys/bad guys narrative you prefer.
They didn’t seriously try to take the capital, and even if by miracle they did, the purpose is to end the war then and there. Right now they are focusing on attrition, wearing Ukraine down slowly.
If it is so, why are they bombing and loosing personnel in Sumy or Kharkiv?
Do you think in war you only attack what you directly plan on taking?
- Even when you routinely bomb civilians?
- In your logic there’s nothing that can disapprove your position. Good luck Mr. Gorsky.
Are you referring to Kiev shelling civilians in the Donbass region for 8 years, prompting Russia’s entry into the war? Also, no clue why you’re calling me Mr. Gorsky, are you accusing me of being Russian just because I think the people in Donetsk and Luhansk are human?
Even when you routinely bomb civilians?
?? Even amnesty has noted that Russia is the ones to make civilian escape corridors from areas under siege, while Ukraine shells them.
What western propaganda does to an MF. Get out of the echo chamber.
Oh boy the reddit imperialists are angry with this one
Yeah, people get irritable about misinformation on their front page, like when someone falsely claims Zelenskyy canceled elections.
And before that he banned opposition parties
No, a bunch of parties were suspended because they have connections to the country that’s bombing them, and it’s only while they’re under martial law. Martial law could end any day now if Russia just fucked off back home.
“He didn’t ban opposition parties, opposition parties were merely banned, by him!”
banned
Suspended. As in, a temporary measure. Because dealing with Russia would be treasonous when they’re under active attack by Russia. Cry harder about people blocking Russian corruption. Someone here cares, too, I’m sure.
by him
Also not true. National Security and Defencr Council did it.
Any other blatant lies I can help clear up?
No, a bunch of parties were suspended
Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words.
That’s a great thought-terminating cliche you have there. Careful with it, though. It’s an antique.
Go back to reddit
Brushing me off is a thought terminating cliche
You said nothing for me to really refute, other than a round about way of saying you think in generally full of shit. I made an actual claim, you made a vague dodge that doesn’t actually address it, I pointed that out.
